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#mathchat Wiki
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! guided tour
001 Differentiation
002 'Real' maths
003 Fractions
004 Manipulatives
005 Assessment
006 What technology?
007 Adult curriculum
008 Reflective Learners
009 Engagement
010 Class Time Use
011 Why I hate maths
012 Terminology
013 'Mathphobia'
014 The Nature of Maths
015 Show and Tell
016 Vertical Integration
017 Product to Process
018 Investigation Length
019 Preparation for Work
020 Success in Mathematics
021 Groupwork
022 Effective lessons
023 Impact of ICT
024 Mathematics Websites
028 Why under 16?
2010.07.15 Differentiation
2010.07.19 Differentiation (2)
2010.07.22 'Real' maths
2010.07.26 'Real' maths (2)
2010.07.29 Fractions
2010.08.02 Fractions (2)
2010.08.05 Manipulatives
2010.08.09 Manipulatives (2)
2010.08.12 Assessment
2010.08.16 Assessment (2)
2010.08.19 What tech?
2010.08.23 What tech? (2)
2010.08.26 Adult maths
2010.08.30 Adult maths (2)
2010.09.02 Reflective learner
2010.09.06 Reflective learner 2
2010.09.09 Engagement
2010.09.13 Engagement 2
2010.09.16 Class Time Use
2010.09.20 Class Time Use 2
2010.09.23 Why I hate maths
2010.09.27 Why I hate math 2
2010.09.30 Terminology
2010.10.04 Terminology 2
2010.10.07 'Mathphobia'
2010.10.11 'Mathphobia' (2)
2010.10.14 Nature of Maths
2010.10.18 Nature of Maths (2)
2010.10.21 Show and Tell
2010.10.25 Show and Tell (2)
2010.10.28 Vertical Integration
2010.11.01 Vertical Integratn 2
2010.11.04 Product to Process
2010.11.08 Product to Proc. 2
2010.11.11 Investigation length
2010.11.15 Investigation leng 2
2010.11.18 Prepn for work
2010.11.22 Prepn for work 2
2010.11.25 Success in Maths
2010.12.03 Groupwork
2010.12.06 Groupwork 2
2010.12.10 Effective lessons
2010.12.13 Effective Lesson 2
2010.12.17 Impact of ICT
2010.12.20 Impact of ICT 2
2010.12.24 Maths Websites
2011.01.03 Maths Website 2
2011.01.07 Ideal curriculum
2011.01.10 Ideal curriculum 2
2011.01.14 Short or longterm
2011.01.17 Short or longterm2
2011.01.21 Continuing PD
2011.01.24 Continuing PD 2
2011.01.28 Why under 16?
2011.01.31 Why under 16? (2)
2011.02.04 Which is more fun?
2011.02.11 Blended learning
2011.02.14 Blended learning 2
2011.02.18 Fast tracking
2011.02.21 Fast tracking (2)
2011.02.25 Misconceptions
2011.02.28 Misconceptions 2
2011.03.04 Good Reads
2011.03.07 Good Reads (2)
2011.03.11 How do I  fractions
2011.03.18 How do I  lang
2011.03.21 How do I  lang (2)
2011.03.25 How do I  curric
2011.03.28 How do I  curric 2
2011.04.01 How?  next topic
2011.04.04 How?  nxt topic 2
2011.04.08 How?  Geometry
2011.04.11 How?  Geom 2
2011.04.15 How?Investigation
2011.04.18 How?Investigatn 2
2011.04.22 How? Do vs. learn
2011.04.25 How?Do vs learn 2
2011.04.29 How?Dig deeper
2011.05.02 How?Dig deeper 2
2011.05.06 'Big Ideas'
2011.05.09 'Big Ideas' (2)
2011.05.13 High school skill
2011.05.16 High school skill 2
2011.05.20 Journals
2011.05.23 Journals (2)
2011.05.27 Studentdriven
2011.05.30 Studentdriven (2)
2011.06.03 How?  Maths play
2011.06.06 How?Maths play 2
2011.06.10 Deeper thinking
2011.06.13 Deeper thinking (2)
2011.06.17 How?  Disjointed
2011.06.17 How?  Disjointed 2
2011.06.24 How?  Problems
2011.06.27 How?  Problems 2
2011.07.01 Holiday maths
2011.10.28 Extent of plans
2011.10.31 Extent of plans (2)
2011.11.04 Authentic is..?
2011.11.07 Authentic is..? (2)
Z_1 Thursday raw
Z_2 Monday raw
Z_consolidated
2010.11.15 Investigation leng 2
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Topic (followup to Thursday, 11th November 2010):
Which works better  longterm projects and investigations or ones which can be completed in one or two lessons?
As it happened on
Monday, 15th November 2010, 19:30  21:00 GMT
7:36 pm
ColinTGraham
:
Hello everyone and welcome to Monday's #
mathchat
7:37 pm
ColinTGraham
:
If it's your first time, don't try to keep up with everything but interact with one or two people instead. Don't forget the > #
mathchat
7:38 pm
ColinTGraham
:
Tonight's topic is: Which is better  longterm projects and investigations or ones which can be done in one or two lessons? #
mathchat
7:40 pm
ColinTGraham
:
So, apart from timing, How do longterm and shortterm investigations or projects differ? #
mathchat
7:44 pm
ColinTGraham
:
No chatters tonight? #
mathchat
7:49 pm
suburbanlion
:
project duration seems like such a superficial quality to concerned about & independent of effectiveness #
mathchat
7:50 pm
ColinTGraham
:
I guess most of the UK contingent are in modular exam groove at the moment! #
mathchat
7:51 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
suburbanlion
I'd agree, Ryan, but the length of the project is often related to other pressures such as exams or production... #
mathchat
7:53 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
suburbanlion
Project duration can also have an impact in terms of whether students are overwhelmed by the size of the task #
mathchat
7:55 pm
Janshs
:
OK I'll throw in my view: #
mathchat
I think invetigations are often best done in fairly short timescales *but* data handling may take longer
7:57 pm
suburbanlion
:
@
ColinTGraham
if the size of the task is overwhelming, then perhaps the topic wasn't engaging enough to begin with? #
mathchat
7:57 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
Janshs
Best done in terms of successful outcomes or ease of introduction and performance, Jan? #
mathchat
7:58 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
suburbanlion
Possibly, or just the whole idea of how to approach a longterm project is something that needs to be taught #
mathchat
7:59 pm
Sundayteatime
:
In FE rarely get the same group two lessons in a row so tend to keep investigations in isolated lessons #
mathchat
7:59 pm
Janshs
:
@
ColinTGraham
hmm I think outcomes tend to be better for many of us if we don't have a chance to prevaricate, performance =? #
mathchat
8:00 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
Sundayteatime
How long do your FE lessons tend to be? I suspect longer than Secondary, for example... #
mathchat
8:02 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
Janshs
I just wonder if a lot of the socalled investigations are really just applications of process to assess a curriculum item #
mathchat
8:02 pm
Sundayteatime
:
1 hour functional maths, 2 hour GCSE and hour an a half A level. #
mathchat
8:02 pm
Janshs
:
@
ColinTGraham
yes good point, I haven't got into the functional skills stuff  have you? #
mathchat
8:04 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
Sundayteatime
My NQT year was in a college of FE, and the 90minute GCSE class worked better than the 2 45min in my practice. #
mathchat
8:05 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
Janshs
Functional stuff with adults in a twohour class, but not in its new explict form at secondary! #
mathchat
8:06 pm
ColinTGraham
:
When you do investigations, do you or your students decide the content, and how is the investigation designed? #
mathchat
8:07 pm
Sundayteatime
:
@
ColinTGraham
yeah 45mins is too short. However the 150 mins we were doing for november resits were a killer. #
mathchat
8:09 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
Sundayteatime
What was the 'killer' element... too long/too short or content requirements? #
mathchat
8:14 pm
Sundayteatime
:
@
ColinTGraham
too long to keep focussed a group of teenagers who mostly didn't want to be there. #
mathchat
.
8:16 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
Sundayteatime
So this comes back to Ryan's point earlier about engagement. Do you think change of content would help? #
mathchat
8:20 pm
ColinTGraham
:
Do you think enough investigation or enquirybased work is done in mathematics lessons, so reducing effectiveness generally? #
mathchat
8:24 pm
dweksler
:
@
ColinTGraham
Could investigations or inquiry be integrated into other school subjects  towards projectbased learning? #
mathchat
8:26 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
dweksler
This has been suggested before and tends to work better at primary/elementary levels, before 'subject' specialisms. #
mathchat
8:28 pm
ColinTGraham
:
Another question, raised on Thursday, was whether or not mathematics lends itself to longterm investigations at secondary level #
mathchat
8:31 pm
dweksler
:
@
ColinTGraham
Not sure I believe that projectbased learning (PBL) can't work with older students  depends on teaching/planning #
mathchat
8:33 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
dweksler
In most examples I've seen used or heard about, the maths tends to be integrated with a 'bigger' idea, not maths alone #
mathchat
8:35 pm
dweksler
:
@
ColinTGraham
Well, yes. If you DON'T want the math integrated then it's not really about PBL  the goal would be a balance #
mathchat
8:37 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
dweksler
So does that mean you think that a purely mathematical project is not possible? #
mathchat
8:40 pm
cybraryman1
:
Math Puns:
http://bit.ly/cikNPZ
He became a math teacher due to some prime factors. #
mathchat
#
math
8:40 pm
dweksler
:
@
ColinTGraham
I'm sure it is possible. I think the larger project (building a bridge, designing fabric) can provide motivation #
mathchat
8:41 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
dweksler
So again, the theme seems to come back to the way in which the investigations are designed... engaging content/purpose #
mathchat
8:43 pm
dweksler
:
@
ColinTGraham
engaging content (whatever it is) seems like a good starting place for learning #
mathchat
8:44 pm
ColinTGraham
:
Let's focus on the idea of content/design to close today... What investigations, however long, have you done that were effective? #
mathchat
8:48 pm
ColinTGraham
:
RT @
Sundayteatime
: yes definitely. I'm sure they'd be more motivated if it didn't involve learning maths. #
mathchat
8:49 pm
republicofmath
:
@
ColinTGraham
Investigation of still unsolved 4 peg Tower of Hanoi problem. Gripped most students #
mathchat
8:49 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
Sundayteatime
So 'hiding' the maths inside something larger, where it is a major necessity, is likely to work better? #
mathchat
8:51 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
republicofmath
Do you think it gripped because it was something noone had done before, Gary? i.e. not being 'led' to an 'answer' #
mathchat
8:51 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
republicofmath
...or was it more that it didn't seem like maths, as such! #
mathchat
8:54 pm
republicofmath
:
@
ColinTGraham
Students thought they knew 3 peg solution, saw what it took after critique. Thought 4 peg was within their grasp #
mathchat
8:55 pm
republicofmath
:
@
ColinTGraham
Oh no! It seemed like math  even maths alright. That's what they relished. #
mathchat
8:56 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
republicofmath
So the investigation should be something that is perceived as achievable, even if it isn't or hasn't been... #
mathchat
8:57 pm
ColinTGraham
:
RT @
Sundayteatime
: @
ColinTGraham
or giving up and going home :) #
mathchat
8:57 pm
dweksler
:
@
ColinTGraham
Thanks for the back and forth  I'll leave you with this (some ideas from Papert):
http://bit.ly/30TUl3
#
mathchat
8:58 pm
republicofmath
:
@
ColinTGraham
Think they realized for first time what math research is about. #
mathchat
8:59 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
republicofmath
I think even understanding or realizing that mathematics is something which can be, and is, researched is a step! #
mathchat
9:00 pm
ColinTGraham
:
@
dweksler
Thanks David. And thanks to everyone else for your contributions tonight. The archive will be online in about 30 mins. #
mathchat
9:00 pm
republicofmath
:
@
ClinTGraham
Maybe "achievable" is too strong a word, but should offer avenues to exploration  modeling, computation eg. #
mathchat
9:01 pm
ColinTGraham
:
Don't forget to vote for the next topic!
http://mathschat.wikispaces.com/Current+Poll
#
mathchat
9:02 pm
ColinTGraham
:
See you all next time! 29th November will be a bit different, so watch this space... #
mathchat
9:03 pm
dweksler
:
@
ColinTGraham
Cheers, Colin. Thanks again #
mathchat
9:04 pm
elenelsecchio
:
Just caught the trail end of #
mathchat
to see "29th of November will be a bit different". Intrigued!
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Which works better  longterm projects and investigations or ones which can be completed in one or two lessons?
As it happened on Monday, 15th November 2010, 19:30  21:00 GMT